专访沙克尔·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：“巴铁”回绝离间（全文）

发布时间：2025-05-09　点此：185次

“一带一路”建议越发令美国如鲠在喉。9月9日，美国总统拜登在印度新德里参加G20峰会时宣告，美国与印度、中东国家和欧盟签署协议，建造能够衔接相关国家的铁路网络和海上航线。

拜登视之为“改动游戏规则的区域出资”，美国全国公共广播电视台（NPR）指出，这是拜登寻求对立我国“一带一路”建议的办法之一。

而“办法之二”便是金融体制改革。早在本年8月，美国政府就放风拜登将在G20峰会上推动全球金融组织改革，经过炒作我国“制作债款圈套”以压服展开我国家扔掉与我国的协作。美联社还编造了长文《我国告贷将国际最赤贫国家面向溃散边际》，宣称巴基斯坦、斯里兰卡、肯尼亚等国是“受害者”。

我国让巴基斯坦等国堕入“债款圈套”了吗？某些西方国家近年来一再挑拨我国和巴基斯坦的联系，抹黑中巴经济走廊。怎样看待这些挑拨中巴联系的行为？中巴联系经得起检测吗？

长安街知事联合我国人民大学重阳金融研讨院推出“全球管理咱们谈”栏目。亚洲生态文明研讨与展开研讨所首席执行官沙克尔·艾哈迈德·拉马伊（Shakeel Ahmad Ramay）就中巴联系及“一带一路”建议的影响等与记者进行了同享。

我国从不强行给他国上“民主课”

知事：本年是“一带一路”建议提出十周年，也是中巴经济走廊（CPEC）发动十周年。中巴经济走廊是“一带一路”建议的重要先行先试项目，巴基斯坦在CPEC下取得了哪些展开效果？

沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：“一带一路”建议的提出源自对其时全球状况的审慎反思，其影响也需在此布景下查询，才得以逼真了解。

当年，全球贫穷率居高不下，粮食安全是急需处理的严重问题，逾越8亿人口没有满足的食物，数十亿人无法取得安全的饮用水。在动力和电力方面，相同稀有十亿人口无法取得牢靠且负担得起的电力。基础设施的匮乏也是一个清楚明了的问题，基础设施出资缺口估量已逾越5万亿美元，并且出资缺口一向存在。

全球各地的人们都期待着有人能站出来，为添补这一缺口做出奉献，为困难集体的日子带来活跃的改动。这是敏捷减缓贫穷、处理粮食安全问题的要害一步。

我在深入研讨我国国内展开后发现，我国在处理本身问题的一起，也在逐渐向国际敞开。我国意识到，我国特色社会主义的展开有必要融入全球展开，和国际同享昌盛。在2012年至2013年期间，我国已是全球第二大经济体，成为包含美国在内的120多个国家和区域的最大买卖同伴，在全球舞台上占有了中心方位。假如我国不承当国际职责，不同享昌盛效果，将无法取得前进。

在上述两层布景下，我国提出了“一带一路”建议，也为这个国际带来了严重改变。

得益于基础设施的改进，买卖也为这些活跃改变做出了重要奉献。区域买卖的添加，协作有利的方针环境，又显着推动了全球买卖。估计将有大约4000万人因而脱节极点贫穷，其间大部分坐落展开我国家和最不发达国家。

这些陈述还探讨了改进基础设施和其他方法的互联互通的潜力。需求指出的是，这些定论而非来自于我国或巴基斯坦等对华友好国家的政府陈述，而是源自国际性组织国际银行的一份评价陈述，侧重突显了“一带一路”建议的活跃奉献。

在2018-2019年间，我国又有了一个新知道——在寻求展开希望和全球协作的一起，保护环境和应对气候改变相同至关重要。我国清楚地意识到，完结昌盛与可继续、平和与展开，需求对环境可继续性和应对气候改变做出许诺。

随之，我国树立了多种绿色展开机制，例如“一带一路”绿色展开国际联盟论坛。我国还开端削减对煤炭和化石燃料的出资，转向风能、太阳能和水电等清洁和可再生动力，并出资了低排放的绿色工业。回忆“一带一路”建议十年进程，发生了许多值得庆祝的活跃改变。

知事：华盛顿方面宣称，我国向巴基斯坦和其他“一带一路”协作同伴供给的展开融资是一个债款圈套。您怎样看待美国诽谤我国经过“掠夺性融资进入并削弱东道国并取得政治影响力”？“一带一路”建议使巴基斯坦堕入债款危机了吗？

沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：从经济视点来看，“一带一路”建议下的告贷本质上是生产性出资，首要面向如动力等要害部分和路途等基础设施建造，在这些范畴的出资能够发明巨大的经济时机。

我国经过中巴经济走廊向巴基斯坦出资了至少620亿美元，这是“一带一路”建议的一部分。其间只需57亿美元是告贷方法，以出资的方法被用于巴基斯坦的动力部分，这对巴基斯坦来说是济困扶危。

当巴基斯坦每年因电力而形成的丢失高达40至50亿美元，巴政府致力于处理动力问题之时，来自我国的告贷成功地为工业供给了动力，也促进了巴企业和人民日子的改进，在经济平衡方面发挥了要害效果。

从本质上讲，生产性的债款一般不会导致债款圈套，只需债款国能够运用这笔资金促进本国相关职业的展开。巴基斯坦的实际状况证明，“债款圈套”叙事仅仅西方伪造的谎话，巴基斯坦的开伯尔-普赫图赫瓦省（KPK）、旁遮普省和其他区域都没有阅历所谓的“债款圈套”。

巴基斯坦瓜达尔港材料图。图源：视觉我国

别的，西方媒体常常评论斯里兰卡和赞比亚的债款问题，却从不告知国际社会详细的数据。

在斯里兰卡的债款构成中，来自西方私家金融组织的告贷高达近50%，赞比亚的状况也差不多。相比之下，我国债款仅占斯里兰卡从亚洲开发银行取得债款总额的10%多一点，还供给比西方金融组织更优惠的告贷条件。

50%的债款都不是圈套，戋戋10%的我国债款怎样就成了“圈套”？这种指控在经济上站不住脚。就连约翰斯·霍普金斯大学等美国组织进行的研讨查询，也没有发现我国制作“债款圈套”的依据。面临海量的信息，区别哪些是美西方国家的宣传、哪些是实际，这一点很重要。

知事：您以为西方国家为什么要炒作“我国债款圈套”理论?

沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：西方长期以来一向宣传西式的民主自在和经济秩序理念，以为这是仅有可行的展开途径和国际管理的终极处理方案。但是西方的形式和经济体系常常遭到军工复合体的影响，倾向于打着民主的旗帜干与他国业务，实际上与其所坚持的民主准则各走各路。假如小国不听指挥，就有或许招来“色彩革新”。

但是，我国已用本身的展开效果向国际证明，不同的展开形式都能够茁壮生长。

在展开方法上，我国艰苦奋斗式的生长进程不同于西方历史上殖民掠夺式的资本积累，这对一向企图经过掌控全球局势来阻止其他国家独立展开的西方来说，几乎难以相信。

在展开理念上，我国从不强行给其他展开我国家上“民主课”，也不干预其内政。我国向国际供给了一个挑选：让咱们在不干与互相业务的前提下，一起致力于经济展开。

我国的展开方法、理念和效果，从各个方面挑战了从前占主导方位的西方叙事，西方对此发生了危机感和随之而来的猜疑。

知事：中巴经济走廊已走过榜首阶段，首要处理了巴基斯坦要害基础设施和动力缺少问题。现在，已进入高质量展开的第二阶段，计划在多个范畴敞开新协作。您以为第二阶段的协作要点将是什么？

沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：第二阶段有几个要害的着力范畴。在工业化范畴，中巴两边已慎重许诺发动工业化进程，首要举动便是树立经济特区。在开端的阶段，亟需展开基础设施，包含动力和乡村基础设施，现在它们现已基本建造完结。第二阶段旨在进一步进步和加强巴基斯坦的生产才能。两国正在一起尽力，推动一些工业从我国转移至巴基斯坦，并鼓舞添加对巴基斯坦的出资。

农业协作对巴基斯坦至关重要，由于当时巴基斯坦的经济体系以农业为基础。农业对巴基斯坦国内生产总值的直接奉献逾越20%，其直接奉献也不行忽视。农业生产为巴基斯坦的出口产品供给了不行或缺的原材料，如棉花、皮革制品、大米、芒果等。

第三个要害范畴是融入第四次工业革新。未来几年，中巴两边都会高度重视科学技能展开。我国企业正在巴基斯坦展开许多业务，两国政府也在协作进步巴基斯坦组织的技能才能。我国还在推动两国的教育沟通，鼓舞巴基斯坦学生前往我国学习。

虽然两国在旅行、动力等其他范畴也会有更高水平的协作，但我仍以为两边的要点仍会放在上述的中心范畴。

不要掉入“反叙事”的圈套

知事：在我国，咱们称巴基斯坦为“巴铁”，您听说过吗？意思是中巴是“铁杆兄弟”。您怎样看待当时的中巴联系，它在双边协作中扮演了怎样的人物？

沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：咱们称之为巴中兄弟友情，这份一起的友谊现已继续了一代人的时刻，成为了两国友谊的一大特色。它逾越了传统的国际政治互动，树立在相互尊重和真挚关心的基础上。历史上，无论是我国仍是巴基斯坦，都展现了在对方遇到窘境时仗义协助的精力，咱们是互相关爱的兄弟，不是冷眼旁观的外人，这种真挚的协作精力贯穿两国往来的一直，效果了这份特别的友谊，也构筑了中巴联系坚决的柱石。

正如我国国家主席习近平在2015年对巴基斯坦进行国事拜访时所说：“这是我初次拜访巴基斯坦，但我感觉就像到自己兄弟家中看望相同。”这番比方意味深长，假如你比照我国与其他国家往来时所用的遣词，就会发现我国不会对任何其他国家运用“兄弟”这个词。也便是说，当我国运用“兄弟”这个词时，意味着我国真的视咱们为“兄弟”。

中巴联系与西方国家对国际联系的观念有着底子的不同，由于在西方的国际联系理论和实践中，利益最重要，利益高于一切，国际联系中没有友谊的地步，任何国家只需有利可图，他们才会与之往来。而在我国的意识形态中，处理国际联系的本质特征是相互尊重，而不是利益榜首。

早在20世纪80年代，一位我国官员就明言，我国人在巴基斯坦经商，并非单纯以商业买卖的眼光看待，而是以兄弟友情相待。由此可见，我国人垂青的绝不仅仅利益，更是两国友谊的纽带。在历经风雨洗礼后，中巴两国联系在每一次危机面前都更加坚韧。

能够毫不夸大地说，自建交以来，巴基斯坦和我国一直如兄弟一般同舟共济。上世纪70年代，正是巴基斯坦成为了拉近我国与美国之间联系的纽带，促进我国走向国际舞台。而在上世纪60年代，巴基斯坦也活跃支撑我国参加联合国，为我国融入国际社会起到了重要的推动效果。

另一方面，我国在巴基斯坦继续投入了许多资金，在中巴经济走廊发动之前，我国企业就在巴基斯坦累计出资了100至150亿美元。跟着中巴经济走廊的发动，两国联系得到了进一步深化。相互尊重一向是两国联系的中心要素，中巴都没有把对方当外人。在这种相互尊重和了解下，中巴友谊得以一起生长，历久弥坚。

知事：咱们注意到，某些西方国家近年来一再挑拨我国和巴基斯坦的联系。比方，上一年，巴基斯坦遭受了史无前例的洪涝灾害，美国媒体就开端炒作所谓的“我国未全力协助巴基斯坦抗洪”的说法。巴基斯坦发生突击事情，一些包藏祸心的西方媒体借机抹黑巴基斯坦，抹黑中巴经济走廊。您怎样看待这些挑拨中巴联系的行为？他们的意图是什么？中巴联系经得起检测吗？

沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：这不是一个新现象。

重新我国树立以来，巴基斯坦和我国的兄弟友情一直如一。两国联系不只坚决，并且还在不断加强。

但是，跟着中巴经济走廊的扩展，咱们目击了烘托炒作和歹意污蔑接连不断，企图阻止中巴经济协作。

在挑拨中巴联系这一企图上，西方一开端是计划运用新疆问题，宣称维吾尔族穆斯林遭到优待，并以此为幌子，暗示巴基斯坦应该与我国坚持间隔。

有一个荒唐的报导给我留下了深刻印象。承受采访的所谓“专家”拿出相片宣称，在新疆被软禁、戴上手铐、被约束在房间里不允许自在活动。

试问，已然不允许做任何事情，那他是怎样拿到手机摄影，还经过卫星互联网与国际同享相片？这说不通，这些都是西方为自己的特定议程而宣传的毫无根据的谎话。

2020年10月，中企承建的巴基斯坦拉合尔轨道交通橙线项目注册运营，标志着巴基斯坦步入“地铁年代”。图源：视觉我国

环绕中巴经济走廊的“债款圈套”的叙事也是如此。实际状况与所他们所伪造的故事底子不相符。巴基斯坦的开伯尔-普赫图赫瓦省（KPK）、旁遮普省和其他区域都没有阅历所谓的“债款圈套”。

与以往不同，咱们现在处在一个互联互通和数字化的新年代，信息传达的速度和广度史无前例。在面临那些宣传叙事时，咱们不能仅仅作出反响，而应自动采纳举动，与其单纯否定，不如要求对方供给详细的数据和依据。

一起，咱们也应该活跃地提出咱们自己的叙事，防止堕入“反叙事”的循环中。

当他们说“债款圈套”时，咱们应该着重“债款减免”，要告知国际我国在债款减免方面所做的尽力。我国的债款减免为第三国际国家供给了额定的资源，协助了它们归还国际银行和国际货币基金组织等西方金融组织的告贷，这正是我国施以的援手。

你为什么会问我关于债款圈套的问题？当你问这个问题时，意味着西方叙事的宣传效果正在变得越来越激烈和显着。他们会说，你看，一切人都在议论“债款圈套”，这说明它是一个实在存在的问题。

在这个过程中，咱们有必要十分慎重地区分那些在信息缺乏状况下传达的叙事。咱们有必要要自己所传达的信息担任，防止堕入“反叙事”的循环中。因而，在评论时，咱们能够防止运用“债款圈套”这样的宣传术语，而是着重我国在债款减免方面所做的尽力。

让咱们开端活跃自动地表达咱们的观念吧，不要堕入到“反叙事”的逻辑圈套里，这样做会无意中强化西方的叙事，他们便是成心引导人们议论这些论题来到达宣传意图，这在中巴联系的比方中很显着。

当他们对我国的人权问题指指点点时，咱们应该直指他们在人权问题上劣迹斑斑的实际。比方，他们是真心实意地重视穆斯林的福祉吗？从来没有。他们的违法前科记忆犹新，在伊拉克、阿富汗、利比亚、叙利亚等地，他们杀害了不计其数的穆斯林，他们仅仅企图运用穆斯林的名义在咱们两国之间播下不合的种子。咱们有必要把握叙事的操控权，活跃自动，而不是被迫反响。

假如咱们不正面处理这些问题，它们就会在大众的心中播下紊乱的种子。虽然巴中友谊很安定，但在“信息爆破”的年代，并非每个人都能取得全面的信息，这或许导致人们遭到西方宣传攻势的影响，关于何为实在、何为虚伪感到困惑，这也正是咱们需求树立自己叙事的原因。咱们有必要运用好各种东西来精确反映实际。

“输不起”就赖皮

知事：当时，全球许多评论都指向全球化将落潮，“脱钩断链”的声响不断。在这种状况下，中巴将要向国际传递怎样的声响？两国要怎样加强协作，加强互联互通？

沙克文·艾哈迈德·拉马伊：这轮反全球化浪潮提醒了一个清晰的信息：当西方国家发现自己在本来占优势的范畴方位不保时，他们往往会对立促进全球化的举动。

此前，西方国家宣传全球化的优点，是由于他们觉得自己的企业能在买卖和服务范畴稳赚不赔、永保抢先。但现在状况发生了改变。

我国现已在量子核算、人工智能、5G、6G等技能方面处于抢先方位。关于西方国家来说，技能便是立身之本，现在忽然发现自己无法保持主导方位和技能优势了，他们就开端抵抗全球化。

关于西方国家来说，技能便是它们的立身之本，它们经过技能操控国际。但现在，我国的影响力现现已过华为这样的大公司日益扩展，华为在全球科技范畴发挥侧重要效果。全球技能格式的这种改变挑战了西方之前的主导方位，因而他们开端抵抗全球化。这种抵抗的本源能够追溯到他们对失掉技能优势的忧虑。

在白宫举办的一次会议上，美国前总统特朗普清晰标明，美国不能容忍任何国家在现代技能上逾越美国。这种心情反映出，当其他国家好像在某些范畴要逾越美国时，他们就感到烦躁不安。曩昔，西方国家支撑全球化，着重新技能的优点。但是，跟着其他国家，尤其是我国，开端在这些技能上体现出色，局势就彻底变了。

华为的遭受便是典例。虽然华为等我国公司经过了很多安全性测验，但西方各国一向在齐心协力遏止它们的影响力。

尤其是美国，不肯让华为与西方的公司竞赛。这种不肯源于心虚，他们以为自己恐怕赢得与华为的竞赛，然后做出了施加禁令、责备和企图玷污华为名誉等下策。

近期，美国五角大楼采纳多项举动加速技能晋级，以进步美国公司的技能实力。他们还推出了一些十分规举动，其间包含树立专门致力于这一方针的安全组织，这些举动的锋芒多指向我国。

7月31日，巴基斯坦总理夏巴兹·谢里夫在中巴经济走廊发动十周年庆祝活动上宣布说话。图源：视觉我国

在这种布景下，我国体现出了特殊的耐性，活跃展开经济联系，营建敞开的环境。一起，我国在全球化进程中扮演着领跑者的人物，是多边主义的倡导者。巴基斯坦也期望在中巴经济走廊结构内作出重要奉献。巴基斯坦有才能，也乐意发挥活跃效果。

中巴两国都热烈欢迎其他国家参加中巴经济走廊建造。研讨标明，中巴经济走廊买卖简化了买卖流程，削减了运送本钱。互联互通的强化无疑将使参加的国家收获颇丰。正是出于这个原因，巴基斯坦鼓舞其他国家参加中巴经济走廊，中方对此标明欣赏。

中方屡次着重，我国将在全球业务中继续发挥引领效果并展现出推动多边协作的激烈希望。这与曩昔大不相同，很显着，我国现在站在全球化的中心。

此外，巴基斯坦的战略方位至关重要，坐落各区域互联互通的要害节点上——北面毗连中亚，南面与南亚相连，一侧通往海湾和阿拉伯国家。这一地缘战略定位使巴基斯坦能够成为全球互联互通的中心纽带，巴基斯坦已做好充分准备扮演这一人物。

“一带一路”建议具有显着增强买卖互联互通、进一步推动全球化进程的势能。这不只仅是一个理论结论。一项归纳研讨标明，运用中巴经济走廊与我国进行买卖能够带来实实在在的优点。它简化了买卖流程，为通往我国的买卖供给了直接而强壮的基础设施，由此发生的效应也为相关国家带来了可观的收益。这项研讨横跨中东和欧洲的六个国家，包含沙特阿拉伯、阿曼、希腊、荷兰、法国和德国，清楚地展现了运用中巴经济走廊与我国进行买卖的优势。

经过中巴经济走廊进行买卖将削减运送本钱、紧缩运送时刻。曾经，一个集装箱的归纳运送费用高达1000美元。跟着中巴经济走廊的落地，这一本钱估计将下降至每个集装箱600到700美元。相同，曩昔需求20天的运送时刻，现在只需10天，节约了许多的时刻本钱。

该研讨还对潜在的本钱节约进行了量化。据估量，到2016年，经过中巴经济走廊与这六个国家进行买卖，每年仅在运送本钱方面就能够节约高达720亿美元。这代表着巨大的经济利益，凸显了中巴经济走廊的严重效益。我国和巴基斯坦都是全球化的活跃倡导者，都在以实际举动发掘和开释全球化势能。

以下为采访英文全文：

The Shakeel Ahmad Ramay Interview: Pakistan Rejects Provocation

The United States is growing increasingly wary of the "Belt and Road Initiative." On September 9th, President Biden announced during the G20 Summit in New Delhi said that the U.S. had signed agreements with India, Middle Eastern countries, and the European Union to construct a railway network and maritime routes connecting relevant countries.

As noted by the National Public Radio, Biden sees this as a "region-changing investment," highlighting it as one of Biden's strategies to counter China's "Belt and Road Initiative."

Another approach involves financial system reform. As early as last month, the U.S. government hinted that Biden would push for global financial institution reform at the G20, using rhetoric about China "creating debt traps" to persuade developing countries to distance themselves from cooperation with China. The Associated Press even published an extensive article titled "China’s loans pushing world’s poorest countries to the brink of collapse," asserting that countries like Pakistan, Sri Lanka, and Kenya are "victims."

Has China truly ensnared countries like Pakistan in a "debt trap"? In recent years, certain Western countries have frequently attempted to sow discord between China and Pakistan, tarnishing the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor. How should we view these attempts to disrupt China-Pakistani relations? Is the China-Pakistan relationship able to withstand such tests?

In collaboration with RDCY, Capital News has launched the "Global Governance Forum" section. Shakeel Ahmad Ramay, chief executive officer of Asian Institute of Ecocivilization in Pakistan, shared his views with us on topics such as so-called debt trap, the impact of the Belt and Road Initiative, and China-Pakistan relations.

Belt and Road Initiative

Capital News：This year marks the 10th anniversary of the Belt and Road Initiative. And this year also marks the tenth anniversary of the initiation of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor(CPEC). CPEC is a pilot project under the Belt and Road initiative.What is your overall impression of the Belt and Road Initiative? What kind of benefits has Pakistan seen from the Belt and Road Initiative or CPEC? Can you give a few examples?

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: It's essential to reflect on the circumstances at the outset of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) to appreciate its impact truly. We need to examine the world's challenges and the various issues plaguing humanity at that time. By doing so, we can better understand what BRI has brought to the world and how it has benefited it.

First of all, if we consider the state of affairs back then, poverty rates were on the rise, and food insecurity was a significant concern. Over 800 million people were grappling with food insecurity, and billions lacked access to safe drinking water. When it comes to electricity and energy, billions of individuals did not have access to reliable and affordable power sources.

Additionally, if you look at the infrastructure, the infrastructure deficit was glaringly evident, with an estimated gap in infrastructure investment exceeding $5 trillion. The question that begged an answer was why this gap in investment persisted. People worldwide were yearning for someone to step forward and contribute to bridging this investment gap, bringing about positive change in the lives of those affected. This was seen as a critical step in alleviating poverty and addressing food insecurity promptly.

Moreover, we also need to understand the gradually enhanced engagement of China since 1978. must consider the context. First, China addressed its own issues through reforms and dedicated work, while gradually opening up to the world. During the period, China was exploring a way to construct socialism with Chinese characteristics. However, after 1992, it took on a more global perspective especially after the launch of Go Global Policy.

However, President Xi Jinping’s leadership made an ever more significant shift in China’s attitude towards global issues. He realized now we have to explore socialism with Chinese characteristics by integrating into a global issue and by pulling together and share our prosperity with other countries. Why? Because at that time, in 2012-13, China had become the world's second-largest economy and the world’s largest trading partner. China was holding a central position on the global stage. There was a realization that China couldn't progress without taking on global responsibilities and sharing its prosperity. China has to take care of the needs of mankind as a whole. Here comes an entirely new vision when the President Xi Jinping has put forward a ‘community with a shared future for mankind.'

Under this vision, China launched the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), which has since changed China’s global layout significantly.

Reports from various institutions, including the World Bank in 2018-19, suggest that the BRI has positively impacted. The World Bank's assessment indicated that every country of the world, either participating or not, in the BRI could expect a positive change in their GDP.

Trade, bolstered by improved infrastructure, has also contributed to these positive changes. Furthermore, trade improvements, coupled with favorable soft-side policies are poised to significantly facilitate global trade. It's projected that around 40 million people worldwide will be lifted out of extreme poverty thanks to the BRI, with the majority of them residing in developing and least-developed countries.

They also discussed the potential for infrastructure and other forms of connectivity improvement. I'm referring to reports from the World Bank, not government reports from China or any friendly countries like Pakistan. This is an assessment from an international institution, the World Bank, which highlights the positive contributions of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI).

In the year 2018-19, China had another realization that while pursuing the dream of development and collaboration in a global context, China must recognize the crucial importance of environmental protection and the urgent need of addressing climate change. China understood that achieving prosperity and sustainable peace and development required a commitment to environmental sustainability and addressing climate change. China is both willing and able to tackle such issues.

This led China to expand the content of BRI during the 2nd Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation. China established various mechanisms, including one of the largest forums for International Coalition for Green Development on the Belt and Road, whereby all the BRI countries are empowered to dedicated to pursue a greener way of development.

Subsequently, China set itself an example to other countries by beginning reducing investments in coal and fossil fuels, shifting towards clean and renewable energy sources such as wind, solar, and hydropower. China also invested in green industries with minimal emissions.

Looking back over the past decade of the Belt and Road Initiative, there have been numerous positive changes worth celebrating.

Capital News：Thank you very much for your recognition of the Belt and Road Initiative. Washington assert that China's development financing to Pakistan and other BRI recipients is a debt-trap.this What your opinion regarding to the perception of China coming in by predatory financing and weakening a host country and gaining political influence? Do you think BRI pushing Pakistan into a "debt trap"?

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: From an economic perspective, it's crucial to assess which types of debt can potentially become traps. Specifically, we need to examine the nature of these loans. Not all loans are economically sustainable, and some can indeed lead to debt sustainability issues and potentially result in a debt trap.

However, if we look at the loans under the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), they differ from non-productive loans that does not generate any income for these countries’ people. These loans are productive in nature, primarily directed towards essential sectors like energy. Energy is a fundamental requirement for industries and businesses, and investments in this area can create significant economic opportunities.

Furthermore, when we consider the industries that China is investing in under the BRI, they are typically in the production sector of these countries. Additionally, the infrastructure investments, such as road infrastructure, play a vital role in enhancing connectivity.

Because in the modern era, connectivity is a key indicator of a country's development status. Nations with better connectivity can attract investments and businesses, while those with weak connectivity, they cannot attract the investment towards their country. So these kinds of loans are productive that can facilitate these countries’ development. This is one thing.

For another thing, it's worth noting that most BRI programs are structured as investment programs. To illustrate, let's take the example of Pakistan, where initial negotiations between Pakistan and China amounted to $62 billion. However, only $5.7 billion of this was in the form of loans. That means the majority of the BRI funding in the country was allocated to investment projects, which are less likely to pose a risk of debt trap.

This question refers to a fundamental issue regarding debt traps. It's important to understand why certain debt is not likely to become a debt trap. In the case of Pakistan, out of the $62 billion, $5.7 billion was allocated to the energy sector. This investment was particularly significant because Pakistan was grappling with a worst type of energy crisis, incurring annual losses of four to five billion US dollars due to electricity load shedding.

The debt played a pivotal role in rebalancing the situation by providing a stable and available access to electricity for the industries, fostering positive changes in businesses and people's lives.

In essence, it was a productive investment whereby the country and its people can generates income in the growing industries boosted by these investment, and from an economic standpoint, productive debts typically do not lead to debt traps as long as the country can capitalize on the opportunities it offers to create more jobs and thus stimulate a healthy economic growth.

Looking at other examples around the world, particularly the Sri Lanka case that often comes up in Western media discussions as a so-called victim of China’s debt trap, but they don't tell us the data of how the debt the country is bearing is constituted.It's crucial to consider the data. A matter of fact that these Western media would not like to reveal is nearly 50% of Sri Lanka's debt comes from Western private financial institutions, which posed a real challenge for Sri Lanka.

Furthermore, Western institutions tend to offer loans at higher interest rates and have stricter repayment terms. The indebted countries have to pay back at the time when required because these loans are not country-to-country, they are the company to the country. These loans are offered by some company, such as commercial banks, to these countries. So the countries that you cannot negotiate with them on equal footing.

In contrast, Chinese debt accounted for just over 10% of Sri Lanka's total debt from Asian Development Bank. Furthermore, Chinese terms were often more favorable than those of the Western institutions. So how only 10% of China's debt is a problem? That's all, all the things are very okay. I can't understand and I can't figure out any economic rationale how they can justify it as trap.In other words, such allegation of debt trap is groundless.

Let's take a closer look at the Zambia example. It wasn't a Chinese company that approached the Chinese government or any Chinese company influencing the Zambian government to sell its electricity supply company. Instead, it was the IMF advising the Zambian government on this matter.

If we examine examples from around the world, a growing trend of China’s investment in other countries emerges. When Chinese investments flow into Africa, they often contribute to enhanced productivity and collective development. Chinese companies frequently invest in capacity building for their employees and local communities, which is a vital aspect of their approach to cooperate with these countries.

In fact, similar observations can be made in various regions across the globe. Some American institutions conducted studies on China’s overseas investments, like Johns Hopkins University in the USA, which has examined Chinese investment projects in different parts of the world, including Africa, Latin America, and Asia. These studies found no instances of debt traps.

These American institutions couldn't identify any examples of such traps. They only pointed a finger toward the Sri Lanka case which I already described. It's essential to distinguish between propaganda and verifiable facts and data. You may hear a lot of claims on the propaganda side, but if you talk about facts and data, you will not find anything. So that is the whole story.

Capital News： From what I know, China isn't the biggest creditor to developing countries. Why do you think the Western countries are hyping up the "Chinese debt trap" theory?

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: China has opened up significantly in recent times. It's clear that they are not comfortable with any country reaching and exceeding an extreme level of control or being subjected to what they perceive as the dominance or even a form of economic servitude imposed by Western countries. So China has shaken and challenged this hegemony.

As China continues to grow, it aims to ensure that no country is subject to such levels of control. This stance signifies China's divergence from Western influence.

Moreover, Western countries have long propagated the idea of a liberal economic order, suggesting that this is the only viable recipe for the world. They've emphasized that liberal Western-style democracy is the ultimate solution for governance of country. Conversely, China has demonstrated to the world that different models can thrive and prosper. They argue that models of governance should be developed according to a nation's unique needs, culture, circumstances, and perspectives. In essence, China has championed its own ideology, diverging from the Western narrative that a liberal economic order and liberal democracy are the sole paths to success.

This ideological shift became more pronounced after the USSR's collapse, leading to discussions about the 'end of history' where only liberal economics and liberal democracy would reign supreme. China's alternative model has raised concerns in the West, as it challenges the previously dominant narrative. So that's why the western countries started to feel threatened by the alternative from the Chinese side.

Secondly, China has offered hope to developing countries by providing them with the opportunity to pursue their development projects without imposing terms and conditions. China does not preach lessons in democracy or lectures on the rule of law and other matters to these countries as these Westerners does. Instead, China presents an option to the world: let's work together on economic progress without meddling in each other's own affairs. China not only freed itself from Western hegemony but also assists other countries in breaking free from such hegemonic behaviors and attitudes.

China has emphasized this point of view on numerous occasions at international forums, advocating against bullying and dictating other countries' what to do and what not not to do. China firmly believes that every country has the right to make its own decisions. It tells other countries to be confident of the theory and institutions of their own by keeping their sovereignty and independence intact. And this aligns with the sense of confidence in Chinese socialism, as observed within China. So the west definitely don't like it, because they are easily extracting developing countries’ sources through the hegemonic world order.

Furthermore, China differs from the West in its approach to development. Western ways to development, historically, involved the exploitation of resources from developing countries through colonization and resource theft. In contrast, China has developed through hard work and does not engage in resource plunder. In fact, China helps other countries protect their resources. These fundamental differences upset the ‘apple cart’ of Western countries, as they have historically sought to control the world and hinder the independent development of other nations.

Lastly, Western models and economies are often influenced by the military-industrial complex, which tends to interfere in various countries under the guise of democracy or other agendas. This interference sometimes contradicts the principles of democracy upheld by Western countries themselves. In their interference to a specific country’s politics, sometimes there is for one candidate, other time this for other candidates. Western countries tend to support specific candidates on the pretext of democracy or other issues, pressuring them to heed their interests and provide them with advantages in the real-world.

Failure to comply to such interference may lead to concerns about 'color revolutions,' as we've witnessed in many countries where revolutions are driven by internal forces but can serve external agendas.

However, in the case of China, there is no such thing like that.The unity among China's leaders, fostered by the CPC, prevents external interference in Chinese affairs.

China's political system, characterized by the CPC's leadership, makes it difficult for the military-industrial complex or major industries to manipulate Chinese politics. Chinese leadership emphasizes that if other countries support China, they will receive support in return, but this support doesn't involve meddling in China's internal matters.

In China, there exists a unity among leaders, everybody has a good chance to come to the power. These aspects often contrast with the Western perspective and raise questions among Western observers.

Capital News: The China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) has successfully completed its initial phase, primarily addressing Pakistan's critical infrastructure and energy shortages. Now, it has entered the second phase of high-quality development, aiming to initiate new collaborations in multiple areas. In your perspective, what do you believe will be the key focus of cooperation in this second phase?

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: In the second phase, which spans 2 to 3 years, with a primary focus on the initial 2 years, there are several key areas of focus. First and foremost is industrialization. In this phase, China and Pakistan have committed to kickstarting the industrialization process, beginning with the establishment of special economic zones. During the initial stage, there was a need to develop basic infrastructure, including energy and rural infrastructure, which has largely been completed.

The second phase aims to further boost and strengthen Pakistan's production capacity. Both countries are working together to facilitate the potential shift of some industries from China to Pakistan, as well as encourage increased investments in Pakistan.

Another critical area of cooperation is agriculture. Agriculture cooperation is very important for Pakistan, because right now Pakistan is an agriculture-based economy. Agriculture directly contributes over 20% to our national GDP and has a substantial indirect contribution. This sector is vital for Pakistan's main exports, such as textiles, cotton being a fundamental element in the textile industry, as well as other raw materials like leather products, rice, mangoes, and more.

The third focus area is the adoption of elements from the Fourth Industrial Revolution. China and Pakistan are placing a strong emphasis on science and technology in the coming years. Recent developments show Chinese companies operating in Pakistan, and both governments are collaborating to enhance the technological capacity of Pakistani institutions. China is also facilitating student exchanges, inviting Pakistani students to study in China as part of capacity-building efforts.

While there are other areas of cooperation, such as tourism and energy, the primary focus of China and Pakistan remains on these core sectors.

China-Pakistan relations

Capital News: In China, we refer to Pakistan as"Ba Tie," Have you come across this term before? It indicates the close bond between the two nations.

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: We say brotherhood.

Capital News: How do you view the current state of China-Pakistan relations, and what role do you believe it plays in bilateral cooperation between the two countries?

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: First of all, we need to understand one very important fact that China-Pakistan relations cannot be examined, analyzed and understood in terms of traditional theories of international relations. Some of the unique relations that Pakistan has had for a generation, and I think that China-Pakistan relations are based on mutual respect and mutual concern.

If you review the history many times, you will find that when China came, Pakistan would help China, and sometimes China would help Pakistan in turn, but what is important during that period was that both countries were at the center of their respect. The two countries did not try to show condescending attitudes towards each other, and rather they fostered brotherly ties with each other and cared for each other. That constitutes a basic element of mutual respect, which is the stand of China-Pakistan relations because we feel for each other if one is confronted with some problems, the other will come forward as a helpful brother, not as a by-standing outsider.

As the President Xi Jinping stated during his visit to Pakistan in 2015, he said his first trip to Pakistan is like visiting the home of his “own brother.” This is a very significant statement, and if you look around the way China interact with other countries and the way China deals with international relations, China does not use such word for any other countries, and that is to say when China use the word, it really means a brotherhood. China-Pakistan relations is fundamentally different from what the Western countries sees on their international relations, because in the Western theory and practices of international relation, interests is the key element, which is before and above all, and there is no room for friendship, they goes somewhere only when they can gain interests.

In Chinese ideology, the essential feature of China’s interaction with other countries in terms of international relations is mutual respect rather than interests, though it is not to say that China don't seek interest.

I remember so one of the Chinese for I the finance minister he said in the 1980s, he said when we do business which are Pakistan, we don't do it at the business. We do is at the brotherhood and other way around. So we don't keep profit at the center of our business transactions. We keep something else that is our relationship if you look at all during the history. So this relationship gets stronger with each and every crisis if you look around.

There is another earlier case epitomizes Pakistan-China relations. I remember that it was in the 1980s China’s then finance minister saying that when China do business with Pakistan, they don't do it merely in the way of business but in the way of brotherhood, and they don't keep their relationship with Pakistan instead of profit at the center of their business transactions. Throughout the history, this relationship gets stronger with each and every crisis. It can be taken that Pakistan and China stood together in early 1970s, and back then it was Pakistan who broke the rift between China and USA, which led to China’s integration into the world system. It was Pakistan who gave China the important support for its seat in the UN in 1960s, which help China to connect with the world.

So if you look at China, you will see that China has been investing in Pakistan. Even before CPEC, Chinese companies had invested 10 to 15 billion dollars in Pakistan. After CPEC, the whole dynamics has been changed. As a result, both countries have made mutual respect a core element. And I find that each of the two countries is not like that outside. If that's the case, the relationship will grow together and will only get stronger at the best of times.

Capital News：These days, a lot of talk worldwide is pointing towards“Slowbalization”. It means trade openness slowed, and weakening political support for open trade amid rising geopolitical tensions. At the same time, there are more and more voices advocating for decoupling and cutting off industrial and supply chains.

what message do you think China and Pakistan will convey to the world? How can both China and Pakistan enhance cooperation and strengthen connectivity in this context?

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: The anti-globalization campaign reveals a clear message: when Western countries find it challenging to dominate a field, they tend to oppose initiatives that promote globalization. Western nations have historically advocated for globalization, touting its benefits and emphasizing the advantages it brings to their companies, trade, and business partnerships. Why? Because they were feeling their companies will be winning, and believed they would be the primary beneficiaries, leading in trade and services, no country can compete them. So they say let's promote the competition, let's promote the globalization.

However, with the rise of China and other developing countries, the overall landscape has shifted. Western countries began to feel that they couldn't maintain their dominance in many fields. They encountered formidable competition from countries like China, which had surged ahead. China, in particular, has become the world's largest trade partner and a leader in various technologies, including quantum computing, artificial intelligence, 5G, 6G, and more.

For western countries, technology was the basis of their rule and they were holding the world through the monopoly of technology. But now China's influence extends to many technologies through major companies like Huawei, which plays a significant role in global technology. This shift in the global technological landscape stood a chance to overturn the West's previous dominance, and they began to resist globalization as a result. The roots of this resistance can be traced back to their apprehension about their losing of technological edge.

During a conference at the White House, former U.S. President Donald Trump made it clear that the United States could not tolerate any country surpassing it in modern technologies. This sentiment reflects their discomfort when other nations appear to be outpacing the U.S. in certain areas. In the past, Western countries championed globalization, emphasizing the benefits of new technologies for developing countries. However, as other countries, particularly China, began to excel in these technologies, the dynamics experienced an about-face shift. There have been concerted efforts to curb the growing influence of Chinese companies like Huawei, despite it has passed numerous security tests.

Western countries, particularly the United States, are reluctant to allow Huawei to compete with American and Western firms. This hesitancy arises from the belief that they cannot effectively compete with Huawei, without resort to measures like legal bans, criticism, and attempts to tarnish the company's reputation.

Western nations are increasingly concerned about their waning competitiveness in economic matters. This concern is evident in recent initiatives, Pentagon makes moves to speed up tech transition to enhancing the technological capabilities of American companies. This unconventional approach involves a security agency working to boost the competitiveness of technology companies, even as they point fingers at China.

In this context, China is displaying remarkable patience and actively cultivating economic relationships. It is fostering an environment of openness. Meanwhile, China is spearheading the globalization process and advocating for multilateralism. China is going to be proactive and take the lead in global reforms, demonstrating an eagerness to drive multilateral efforts. This marks a departure from China's past approach.

As we discuss China's commitment to global reform, it's evident that China now stands as a champion at the heart of globalization. Similarly, Pakistan aspires to make significant contributions, particularly within the framework of the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC). Pakistan can also play a role and Pakistan is ready to play the role. There is no second opinion. There is unanimous agreement that CPEC has greatly enhanced connectivity within Pakistan.

And in addition to that, the strategic location of Pakistan is of paramount importance. We must recognize that we are situated at a pivotal juncture, acting as a vital node for connectivity across various regions.

Geographically, we have direct links with Central Asia to our north, South Asia to our south, and access to Gulf and Arab countries on one side, while also providing a gateway to North Africa on the other. This strategic positioning empowers us to serve as a central hub for global connectivity.

So, Pakistan is fully prepared to embrace this role. Both Pakistan and China extend invitations to other countries to participate in CPEC. This initiative holds the very potential to significantly augment trade connectivity and further advance the globalization process.

This isn't merely a theoretical assertion. A comprehensive study indicates that utilizing the CPEC route for trade with China presents tangible benefits. It streamlines the process, providing a direct and robust infrastructure link to China. This, in turn, yields substantial gains for countries involved. The study, which encompassed six countries including those in the Middle East and Europe, such as Saudi Arabia, Oman, Greece, the Netherlands, France, and Germany, clearly demonstrates the advantages of employing the CPEC route for trade with China.

Study highlighted that the travel time will be reduced by 20 days for Oman, 21 days for KSA, 24 days for Kuwait, 21 days for Netherlands, 21 days for Germany and 21 days for France by trading through the Gwadar.

It is substantial decrease which will be followed by reduction in cost of travel. The results of the study underlined that there would be saving of US$ 1857 for Oman, US$ 1457 for KSA, US$ 1457 for Kuwait, US$ 1357 for Holland, US$ 1357 for Germany and France on per container. China can accrue benefits of US$ 70 billion in saving on annual basis. It will also bring good revenue for Pakistan. It has been predicted that the benefits would be between US$ 7-8 Billion to US$ 10-12 billion on annual basis in form of services and fees. This enhanced connectivity will undoubtedly benefit these countries. It is precisely for this reason that Pakistan encourages others to consider joining CPEC, and China echoes this sentiment. The study also quantifies the potential savings. By utilizing CPEC for trade with these six countries up until 2016, it is estimated that a staggering 72 billion dollars could have been saved annually in transportation costs alone. This represents a significant financial gain, highlighting the substantial benefits of CPEC.

Both Pakistan and China are actively advocating for globalization and taking concrete steps to realize its potential. However, it's important to acknowledge that some may harbor reservations about the long-term implications of globalization. It's crucial to consider that one approach alone may not suffice to achieve the best possible outcome. This diversity of opinion is why there are opposing viewpoints.

Capital News: We’ve noticed that certain Western countries have been trying to sow discord between China and Pakistan in recent years. For instance, last year, during the unprecedented flooding in Pakistan, American media started spreading rumors about China not fully assisting Pakistan in flood relief. Whenever there’s a security incident in Pakistan, some malicious Western media outlets take the opportunity to criticize Pakistan and undermine the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor.What’s your take on these actions that are trying to stir up issues between China and Pakistan? What do you think their end goal is? Do you think China-Pakistan relationship can withstand these challenges?

Shakeel Ahmad Ramay: This is not a new phenomenon. Right from the outset, it's clear that while others might not have maintained steadfast friendships with China, Pakistan and China have stood as unwavering brothers. Their bond is not only strong but continues to grow even stronger. However, with the expansion of CPEC, we've witnessed a surge in propaganda, malicious campaigns, and attempts to hinder our activities. Even now, Western countries, including India, openly oppose CPEC and have declared their intent to sabotage it.

They're employing various strategies. Unlike in the past, we're now in a different era—an era of connectivity and digitalization. They're utilizing new tools that might be more challenging to counter, such as Twitter, Facebook, and the like. However, fundamentally, they lack the data to substantiate their claims.

For example, in Pakistan, they initially raised concerns about Xinjiang, alleging mistreatment of Uighur Muslims. They insisted that China was engaged in egregious practices, even going as far as claiming that China was killing them, running concentration camps, and suppressing Islamic teachings. They used this as a pretext to suggest that Pakistan should distance itself from China. This was pure propaganda. One particularly interesting story involved a certain philosopher who not only endorsed this narrative but painted a picture of individuals being confined, handcuffed, and restricted from free movement within a room.

But one question, they are not allowed to do anything, but how they can get a mobile phone to take a picture and then they have the satellite internet connection to share the pictures with the world. I don't see if somebody is so mistreated. They are not allowed to do anything how the photographer can have a mobile, and also has this satellite mobile connection. It doesn't add up. These are the baseless claims propagated for their own agenda. The same goes for the narrative surrounding CPEC being a debt trap. The reality on the ground doesn't align with the narrative being spun. KPK, Punjab, and other regions are not experiencing the supposed negative impacts that are being asserted.

It's crucial to bear in mind that we're living in a vastly different world from the past. We must take a proactive stance rather than merely reacting to these propagandist narratives. Instead of outright dismissing them, let's ask for concrete data and evidence. Let's engage in a constructive debate based on facts and figures.

Furthermore, we should also be proactive in presenting our own narrative. For instance, why are you asking me about the debt trap? Because when you are asking this debt trap question, that means the other propaganda is getting strong and getting more visibility. They will say everybody is talking about the debt trap, so there is really some problems.

It's crucial for us to recognize the narratives being propagated without being fully informed. We must take charge of our own messaging rather than getting caught in a cycle of counter-narratives. In this endeavor, let's refrain from using terms like 'debt trap' when discussing. Instead, let's highlight China's efforts in debt relief and capacity-building within countries. China's assistance enables nations to take advantage of their own resources to generate income, aiding in their ability to repay loans from institutions like the World Bank and IMF. So China is providing them debt relief.

In the face of today's barrages of information, even though the bond between Pakistan and China is robust, confusion can still arise among the general populace. Not everyone has access to comprehensive knowledge, which can lead to uncertainty about what is accurate and what is not. This is precisely why we need to establish our own narratives. Otherwise, they will start to believe that maybe something is going wrong. There are some adults in the social media find that we have to come up with our own narratives now.It's time to proactively present our perspective.

Don't engage in a counter-narrative attempt, as doing so would inadvertently reinforce their narrative. They purposely steer conversations towards these topics, and they want you to discuss this as much as you can, hoping to exploit them for propaganda purposes, as is evident in the case of China and Pakistan.

We must avoid falling into the trap of reactive responses. When they assert 'debt trap,' we should emphasize 'debt relief.' When they raise concerns about human rights, we should indeed acknowledge the importance of such issues while also considering their actions in other regions. Are they sincere to Muslim? Never.Their sincerity in championing the cause of Muslims is questionable, given their track record in various countries.

They have killed, murdered thousands and thousands of Muslim across the world in Iraq and Afghanistan, in Libya, in Syria, here we can list names of many other countries that suffered from their outrageous atrocities. So they're using these selectively presented example to sow discord between our countries, We must wrest control of the narrative and be proactive, not reactive. China is now taking the lead, demonstrating a proactive approach to the issue of narrative-building.

If we don't address these issues head-on, they may not just remain benign discussions. They have the potential to sow confusion in the minds of the public. If someone sees a picture of China without context, they might form misguided conclusions. It's imperative that we deploy various tools to shape a narrative that accurately reflects the reality.

来历：长安街知事记者：刘晓琰

流程修改：u060

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